Subject:   JJ POSTING:If the president wants an effective construction freeze he should DEMAND that Iran freeze their construction of their impregnable nuclear facilities and call a pause in their rapid surge toward weapons grade nuclear materials. 

Date: January 16, 2013 2:11:13 PM PST

To: David Turner, LCSW <dt.lcsw@gmail.com>, David Turner <vapto@globalweb.net>

Cc: Michael Berenbaum <michael@berenbaumgroup.com>, rabbi steven silver <rabbi@templemenorah.org>, JESSICA TOURTELOT <jtourtelot@templemenorah.org>

David,

  This is from a Jewish Journal of Los Angeles comment feed, which they automatically sentd to me. The discussion concerned Jeffrey Goldberg's article on Obama. I agree with what the US could've done to convince the EU to abstain. I believe that the demand for an Iranian freeze should be voiced loudly by the US and the European Union as a way of cooling down the Middle East tensions and buying time for a peaceful solution. The citation:

The words are Rashid Khalidi's who according to Obama created Obama's

worldview of Israel

Obama could have persuaded the EU that they actually voted to annul the

commitments made by the Palestinians in the Oslo Accords& thus UN action

nullified any commitments made by Israel under Oslo

If the president wants an effective construction freeze he should DEMAND

that Iran freeze their construction of their impregnable nuclear facilities

and call a pause in their rapid surge toward weapons grade nuclear

materials. This freeze would give time for negotiations and remove the need

for an attack on Iran.

 A very left-wing fneighbor (Jewish) ran in the primary against Jane Harman for Congress. Her major source of information on the Middle East were James Zogby and Columbia University.  We communicated frequently. She sent me her materials and waited for my response. Below is one of my letters to her. It was written in April 2011. Unfortunately nothing is changed. Therefore we have to continue to  refuse to surrender but to keep fighting. I have sent out definitive materials from widely recognized sources refuting the  demographic claims of the Palestinians (and of the several liberal Jewish organizations) relating to projected Palestinian population increases. At some point I will resend them to my dialogue partners: Rabbi Michael Berenbaum  and Rabbi Steven Silver. Below is my letter to Marcy Winograd  dated April 2011.

Marcy,

Maybe, my problem is that I have been too deeply embedded in the Islamic world to have any illusions. I started out hopeful but am now pessimistic. I'm more pessimistic when I listen to Jews such as you. Oddly, the favorite Israeli politician among Arabs was Sharon. They hated him but they said he always was frank and honest and he always kept his promises. Thus, they always knew where he stood. They are the ones who quoted at me the proverbs that state that they think in terms of centuries and that with their persistence they will prevail. Unfortunately, they do not renounce the more violent elements among them that explicitly seek the destruction of Israel. It is a western tendency to seek moderation in their statements. They know this as one of our weaknesses and they explicitly exploited. 

Christians are vanishing breed in the Middle East in every nation but Israel.

Currently the only country in the Middle East with the Christian population that has grown in the last 50 years is Israel. Christians are being driven out of Iraq. Christians are rapidly leaving Lebanon and over the last 10 years the number of Christians and the percentage of Christians has declined significantly. The lot of Christians in Egypt is becoming more dire. Christians in other Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Afghanistan are subject to persecution. In Saudi Arabia Christians cannot have any external signs of their religious practices. Only Muslims can visit the holy city of Mecca.

History and experience make me leery of the possibility of coexistence. It is Islam that teaches not only the superiority of Islam but the duty of Islam to dominate.

when the Jordanian army occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem all Jews were expelled or murdered. All Jewish property was seized. All signs of Jewish presence were eliminated. The PA wants the West Bank and East Jerusalem to be Jew free, not Israeli free, but Jew-free. They regard the rest of Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel Aviv, etc. as "unredeemed" arable land–––with the duty of every Muslim to redeem it. They make no bones about it in their public pronouncements in Arabic.

James Zogby? I am familiar with his work at Temple. However, I am not familiar with his thesis. Fortunately, the Ottoman Empire kept excellent population statistics. The British, always interested in taxes, kept good statistics, too. Thus, the article I sent you is regarded as definitive it showed village by village  the original population in 1947/1948. Further, it was the policy of Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, Egypt, etc. to keep the Palestinians isolated. Thus, we have the numbers not only from where, but to where. None of this comes close to 1 million. However, the significant point is that the current PA “estimate” is 7 million refugees and their descendants. The PA has made it very clear that the right of return to current Israel is not negotiable.

I too, would very much love a nation modeled on the United States with its open political and religious practices. But I am aware of the anthem of the Muslim brotherhood, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc.: one man, one-vote, one time.

While objectives are individual, facts are not. Thus, I would like to see you get the same documentation from Zogby for his 1 million that you got from me on the numbers that I presented to you.

Also, I challenge you to get any Islamic religious leader, with a significant following or any Islamic political leader with a significant following to tell his followers that his goal is to achieve the goals that you stated. Maybe then we will be on our way to achieving the society that you hope for. But until then as my Arab associates tell me “tie up your donkey”.

Howard 

From: "David Turner, LCSW" <dt.lcsw@gmail.com>

I believe, Howard, that this is where the road and rubber meet. American and EU interest is to “solve” the problem and be rid of the conflict. It is precisely the “reasonable” Palestinian demand for “justice” for the “refugees” that is difficult for Israel to represent to the “liberal” West as a “ringer.” Justice, for those with nothing to lose but Jewish lives, Jewish state, is on the side of the “suffering.” But Israel could never accept such a condition and survive beyond a “one-state solution,” another unstable Lebanon from which Jews, as Christians in Lebanon, will have to flee.

I, for one, although advocate of a realistic peace, would never agree with yet another Chamberlain-Hitler II.  

Subject: This article should not have been necessary. It is intended for those who still refuse to see the situation as it has been nearly from the beginning.

This article was meant to  reach some of my  sincere liberal friends who believe in a 2 state solution( although RabbiBerenbaum talks about a “divorce”).

My introductory paragraph sums up the fact that there is no change:

Instead, Abbas  maintains the Arab League position: no negotiations; no recognition; no peace; demands that any area they takeover should be Jew-free. ; maintains that even if they get a  Palestinian State, the residents  of the camps on the West Bank, in Jordan, Syria, etc. would not be citizens this new state  but would have the right of unlimited return to the state of  Israel; and that all of Israel is unredeemed Islamic territory. 

 what is "new" is that even if a Palestinian state is established the “refugees”  will still be an issue as to their right of return to Israel proper. Further, every Palestinian entity says no one has the right to give up this demand in any negotiation which means that no matter what is agreed to, and no matter what is guaranteed by the international community 1 or  more factions will always keep the issue open and demand more.

The recent amnesia  the EU suffered when the Palestinian Authority violated the Oslo Accords bodes  ill  for Israel should they  accept any conditions guaranteed by the United Nations, the European Union, United States.

 Having sat at the summit and heard the discussions myself I equate the offers and statements to Israel as being the equivalent of a rapist trying to lure a young girl into his car by promising “I'm your friend, I wouldn't hurt you, it really upsets me that you don't trust me”.

Howard